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	<title>Comments on: The History of OS Migration</title>
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	<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152</link>
	<description>Some Assembly Required</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: aTmosh</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100824</link>
		<dc:creator>aTmosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 23:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100824</guid>
		<description>@Samwel:

I used bolted on because it&#039;s not transparent (I consider it a hack). AFAIK you have to explicitly use the new API for allocating memory, old/proprietary software for which source is not available will not benefit, which is unfortunately most of the software catalogue.

Also,

&quot;System 7.1.2 for PowerPC was basically a paravirtualized operating system running inside emulation&quot;

I remember running a stripped down MacOS 8 under ShapeShifter on my Amiga 4000 with 68060, and a full System 7.1, the first PPC MacOS was 8.1, not 7.1.

Incidentally, an Amiga with a 68060 expansion card could run MacOS faster than any real 68k Macintosh since the fastest 68k Macs had 68040 CPUs :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Samwel:</p>
<p>I used bolted on because it&#8217;s not transparent (I consider it a hack). AFAIK you have to explicitly use the new API for allocating memory, old/proprietary software for which source is not available will not benefit, which is unfortunately most of the software catalogue.</p>
<p>Also,</p>
<p>&#8220;System 7.1.2 for PowerPC was basically a paravirtualized operating system running inside emulation&#8221;</p>
<p>I remember running a stripped down MacOS 8 under ShapeShifter on my Amiga 4000 with 68060, and a full System 7.1, the first PPC MacOS was 8.1, not 7.1.</p>
<p>Incidentally, an Amiga with a 68060 expansion card could run MacOS faster than any real 68k Macintosh since the fastest 68k Macs had 68040 CPUs :)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Samwel</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100295</link>
		<dc:creator>Samwel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 12:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100295</guid>
		<description>@Bring

You are wrong. The full OS3.1 sources is handled by Olaf Barthel, who
is part of the OS4 development team.
It&#039;s some parts of the OS3.5 and OS3.9 sources that are lost or in
other ways not available for the OS4 dev team.


@aTmosh

Regarding BCPL.. AmigaOS developers have said that they had to
remove alot of BCPL code for AmigaOS 4. AmigaOS 3.x also compiled
with (if I remember correctly) seven different compilers with atleast four
different languages. Hyperion changed that to mainly one language, C
with some smaller parts done with PPC assembler, and one compiler,
GCC.
It would probably have been faster and easier to go the MorphOS way
and start from fresh than to port.
Commodore probably stopped using BCPL quite early but still left a hell
of lot of this code in parts that were not changed or just had small changes done to it over the years.

I wouldn&#039;t call the virtual memory being &quot;bolted on&quot; as you put it.
But yes it was added as a feature in AmigaOS 4.1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bring</p>
<p>You are wrong. The full OS3.1 sources is handled by Olaf Barthel, who<br />
is part of the OS4 development team.<br />
It&#8217;s some parts of the OS3.5 and OS3.9 sources that are lost or in<br />
other ways not available for the OS4 dev team.</p>
<p>@aTmosh</p>
<p>Regarding BCPL.. AmigaOS developers have said that they had to<br />
remove alot of BCPL code for AmigaOS 4. AmigaOS 3.x also compiled<br />
with (if I remember correctly) seven different compilers with atleast four<br />
different languages. Hyperion changed that to mainly one language, C<br />
with some smaller parts done with PPC assembler, and one compiler,<br />
GCC.<br />
It would probably have been faster and easier to go the MorphOS way<br />
and start from fresh than to port.<br />
Commodore probably stopped using BCPL quite early but still left a hell<br />
of lot of this code in parts that were not changed or just had small changes done to it over the years.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t call the virtual memory being &#8220;bolted on&#8221; as you put it.<br />
But yes it was added as a feature in AmigaOS 4.1.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: aTmosh</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100215</link>
		<dc:creator>aTmosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 22:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100215</guid>
		<description>@Bring:

Where on earth did you get that? As part of the IP the sourcecode represents value, I&#039;m sure it&#039;s available as long as you wave a big enough cheque and have enough resources to negotiate the legal quagmire of disputed trademark/IP ownership changes. The biggest difficulty is probably drilling down to whoever is authorized to sell/licence it. Just because some hobby project scale developers can&#039;t get it (officially) doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s &#039;completely lost&#039; a la Doctor Who.

Even if it were, the APIs are well documented, Commodore/CATS themselves did an excellent job on that (ROM Kernel Reference Manual etc.), plus you have superb third party books like the Guru book by Ralph Babel (especially if the new 3.1/4.0 edition is ever published). AmigaOS is probably one of the most extensible and hacked OSes around, there are tons of people with intimate knowledge of the innards that could even make source superfluous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bring:</p>
<p>Where on earth did you get that? As part of the IP the sourcecode represents value, I&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s available as long as you wave a big enough cheque and have enough resources to negotiate the legal quagmire of disputed trademark/IP ownership changes. The biggest difficulty is probably drilling down to whoever is authorized to sell/licence it. Just because some hobby project scale developers can&#8217;t get it (officially) doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s &#8216;completely lost&#8217; a la Doctor Who.</p>
<p>Even if it were, the APIs are well documented, Commodore/CATS themselves did an excellent job on that (ROM Kernel Reference Manual etc.), plus you have superb third party books like the Guru book by Ralph Babel (especially if the new 3.1/4.0 edition is ever published). AmigaOS is probably one of the most extensible and hacked OSes around, there are tons of people with intimate knowledge of the innards that could even make source superfluous.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: pagetable[pont]com &#124; KTamas' blog</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100154</link>
		<dc:creator>pagetable[pont]com &#124; KTamas' blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 09:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100154</guid>
		<description>[...] pagetable[pont]com     May 13, 2009      ajĂĄnlĂł, geekdom    Apple switched their computers from using Motorola 68K processors to Motorola/IBM PowerPC processors between 1994 and 1996. Since the Macintosh operating system, called System 7 at that time, was mostly written in 68K assembly, it could not be easily converted into a PowerPC operating system. Instead, most of the system was run in emulation: The new ânanokernelâ handled and dispatched interrupts and did some basic memory management to abstract away the PowerPC, and the tightly integrated 68K emulator ran the old operating system code, which was modified to hook into the nanokernel for interrupts and memory management. So System 7.1.2 for PowerPC was basically a paravirtualized operating system running inside emulation on top of a very thin hypervisor. (The History of OS Migration) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] pagetable[pont]com     May 13, 2009      ajĂĄnlĂł, geekdom    Apple switched their computers from using Motorola 68K processors to Motorola/IBM PowerPC processors between 1994 and 1996. Since the Macintosh operating system, called System 7 at that time, was mostly written in 68K assembly, it could not be easily converted into a PowerPC operating system. Instead, most of the system was run in emulation: The new ânanokernelâ handled and dispatched interrupts and did some basic memory management to abstract away the PowerPC, and the tightly integrated 68K emulator ran the old operating system code, which was modified to hook into the nanokernel for interrupts and memory management. So System 7.1.2 for PowerPC was basically a paravirtualized operating system running inside emulation on top of a very thin hypervisor. (The History of OS Migration) [...]</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bring</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100099</link>
		<dc:creator>Bring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 14:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100099</guid>
		<description>Hyperion didn&#039;t hava access to AmigaOS sourcecode. No one has, as most of the sources are lost :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hyperion didn&#8217;t hava access to AmigaOS sourcecode. No one has, as most of the sources are lost :(</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chain-Q</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100069</link>
		<dc:creator>Chain-Q</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100069</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d second what aTmosh said on the Amiga case. Additionally i&#039;d append that actually on OS4 + classic hardware, running old drivers is *supported* unless they use DMA capabilities of some hardware, AFAIK.

Additionally i&#039;d include MorphOS to the story, which is a fully API/ABI compliant PowerPC replacement to AmigaOS, and in some levels it&#039;s even more compatibile with the old AmigaOS 3.x, (and some de-facto standard enhancements to it) than AmigaOS 4.x, (while offering very similar advancements and new features over AOS 3.x) and it even predated and influenced AmigaOS 4.x in most of the 68k - PPC integration features and style. And as aTmosh said, it was created by the people, who brought PowerPC to the Amiga in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d second what aTmosh said on the Amiga case. Additionally i&#8217;d append that actually on OS4 + classic hardware, running old drivers is *supported* unless they use DMA capabilities of some hardware, AFAIK.</p>
<p>Additionally i&#8217;d include MorphOS to the story, which is a fully API/ABI compliant PowerPC replacement to AmigaOS, and in some levels it&#8217;s even more compatibile with the old AmigaOS 3.x, (and some de-facto standard enhancements to it) than AmigaOS 4.x, (while offering very similar advancements and new features over AOS 3.x) and it even predated and influenced AmigaOS 4.x in most of the 68k &#8211; PPC integration features and style. And as aTmosh said, it was created by the people, who brought PowerPC to the Amiga in the first place.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: nksingh</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100067</link>
		<dc:creator>nksingh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100067</guid>
		<description>There was also a possible architecture transition for windows that happened but was somewhat stillborn: Windows 2000 and later exist in a special 64-bit &quot;Itanium Edition&quot; form.  Initially support for x86 programs was provided by a hardware &#039;v86&#039; style user mode with WOW64 syscall thunking when required. Newer Itanium processors drop support for hardware execution of x86 code, and the work is done instead by the IA32EL, a binary blob recompiler/emulator that sits in user mode. The wow64 thunking is still required.

An interesting factor in all of this was page size. When the IA64 port of NT was done, various page sizes were tried (Itanium is flexible wrt to pte format and address translation) and they settled on 8K being more efficient. It was thought at the time that 4K pages were required for compatibility with 32-bit apps (Itanium was the future for everything then, so they wanted to be as compatible as possible). So the IA64 Windows kernel supports splitting up single WOW64 page mappings into two regions with differing protections. There&#039;s a bunch of nasty little ifdefs all around the memory manager for this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was also a possible architecture transition for windows that happened but was somewhat stillborn: Windows 2000 and later exist in a special 64-bit &#8220;Itanium Edition&#8221; form.  Initially support for x86 programs was provided by a hardware &#8216;v86&#8242; style user mode with WOW64 syscall thunking when required. Newer Itanium processors drop support for hardware execution of x86 code, and the work is done instead by the IA32EL, a binary blob recompiler/emulator that sits in user mode. The wow64 thunking is still required.</p>
<p>An interesting factor in all of this was page size. When the IA64 port of NT was done, various page sizes were tried (Itanium is flexible wrt to pte format and address translation) and they settled on 8K being more efficient. It was thought at the time that 4K pages were required for compatibility with 32-bit apps (Itanium was the future for everything then, so they wanted to be as compatible as possible). So the IA64 Windows kernel supports splitting up single WOW64 page mappings into two regions with differing protections. There&#8217;s a bunch of nasty little ifdefs all around the memory manager for this.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jonas ElfstrĂśm</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100066</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonas ElfstrĂśm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100066</guid>
		<description>It seems that the problem with the feed is that the &amp; in the  isn&#039;t properly encoded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that the problem with the feed is that the &amp; in the  isn&#8217;t properly encoded.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100065</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100065</guid>
		<description>Sorry, Off topic, but I would like to subscribe to your Atom feed, but it doesn&#039;t work when I try. I use Opera&#039;s built in feedreader. I&#039;ve never had problems with Opera 9.5 or later&#039;s feedreader before. I suspect the XML might be very large due to having the entire contents of your posts in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Off topic, but I would like to subscribe to your Atom feed, but it doesn&#8217;t work when I try. I use Opera&#8217;s built in feedreader. I&#8217;ve never had problems with Opera 9.5 or later&#8217;s feedreader before. I suspect the XML might be very large due to having the entire contents of your posts in it.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: aTmosh</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100063</link>
		<dc:creator>aTmosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100063</guid>
		<description>&quot;AmigaOS 4 (2006) is a native port of AmigaOS to the PowerPC, which was a major effort, since a lot of operating system code had to be converted from BCPL to C first.&quot;

This is incorrect, BCPL program compatibility was retained up to 4.0 but BCPL code was dropped for C and assembler in 2.0 already (1990 IIRC), in fact the ARP project was already doing this during 1.3 days (1987-1989-ish). Porting was only a major effort in the sense that two guys normally doing game ports from PC to Mac did it over 6 years or so (starting in 2001, not counting developer betas), the scope of the project (e.g. AmigaOS didn&#039;t have a TCP stack of its own, no USB support, there was no parent company established 3D support etc.) and due to OS design - chief of which were a historical lack of memory protection (no MMU available in the early days, messaging based microkernel), porting workarounds for chipset dependencies (e.g. Picasso96 to retarget graphics) and no native virtual memory. The latter has been bolted on but proper memory protection would need to be incorporated in a complete redesign (and it would be a mistake not to do this platform independently, or at least switch to x86).

&quot;Amiga OS could not be ported, because the source code was not available.&quot;

This is also incorrect, Hyperion was commissioned by Amiga Inc. and AFAIK had full access to the source code for the 4.0 port. The developers of MorphOS (who incidentally also did the phase 5 PPC boards) had no official access to the sourcecode. If you mean ported to the PPC boards in the nineties, it made no sense, at least commercially. Not much technically either due to the minor speed gap between 68k and PPC back then (060/50 vs. 604/233 at most), which would mostly have been negated by issues such as context switch overhead: the main 68k processor was removed and plugged into the PPC daughterboard, which then interfaced to the motherboard. The lowest level control including access to the chipset and thus mainboard memory/graphics/storage/the Zorro bus controlling all preexisting expansions such as NICs remained with the 68k. The daughtercard with the PPC could be extended with graphics and memory of its own, alleviating some of the bottlenecks, but a full porting effort didn&#039;t make sense until the PPC clone market started up. Sadly this was killed off by Apple, so a full port had to wait another 10 years (Motorola was in fact ready to support an AmigaOS port to PPC in 1996, but this also went under with Escom).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;AmigaOS 4 (2006) is a native port of AmigaOS to the PowerPC, which was a major effort, since a lot of operating system code had to be converted from BCPL to C first.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is incorrect, BCPL program compatibility was retained up to 4.0 but BCPL code was dropped for C and assembler in 2.0 already (1990 IIRC), in fact the ARP project was already doing this during 1.3 days (1987-1989-ish). Porting was only a major effort in the sense that two guys normally doing game ports from PC to Mac did it over 6 years or so (starting in 2001, not counting developer betas), the scope of the project (e.g. AmigaOS didn&#8217;t have a TCP stack of its own, no USB support, there was no parent company established 3D support etc.) and due to OS design &#8211; chief of which were a historical lack of memory protection (no MMU available in the early days, messaging based microkernel), porting workarounds for chipset dependencies (e.g. Picasso96 to retarget graphics) and no native virtual memory. The latter has been bolted on but proper memory protection would need to be incorporated in a complete redesign (and it would be a mistake not to do this platform independently, or at least switch to x86).</p>
<p>&#8220;Amiga OS could not be ported, because the source code was not available.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is also incorrect, Hyperion was commissioned by Amiga Inc. and AFAIK had full access to the source code for the 4.0 port. The developers of MorphOS (who incidentally also did the phase 5 PPC boards) had no official access to the sourcecode. If you mean ported to the PPC boards in the nineties, it made no sense, at least commercially. Not much technically either due to the minor speed gap between 68k and PPC back then (060/50 vs. 604/233 at most), which would mostly have been negated by issues such as context switch overhead: the main 68k processor was removed and plugged into the PPC daughterboard, which then interfaced to the motherboard. The lowest level control including access to the chipset and thus mainboard memory/graphics/storage/the Zorro bus controlling all preexisting expansions such as NICs remained with the 68k. The daughtercard with the PPC could be extended with graphics and memory of its own, alleviating some of the bottlenecks, but a full porting effort didn&#8217;t make sense until the PPC clone market started up. Sadly this was killed off by Apple, so a full port had to wait another 10 years (Motorola was in fact ready to support an AmigaOS port to PPC in 1996, but this also went under with Escom).</p>
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		<title>By: lours's status on Wednesday, 29-Apr-09 10:52:08 UTC - Identi.ca</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100062</link>
		<dc:creator>lours's status on Wednesday, 29-Apr-09 10:52:08 UTC - Identi.ca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100062</guid>
		<description>[...] l&#039;histoire de la migration des OS (eng) http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] l&#8217;histoire de la migration des OS (eng) <a href="http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152" rel="nofollow">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Marcus Astrev</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100060</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcus Astrev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 05:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100060</guid>
		<description>the most wierd thing now with nt is that win7 is going to include windows xp in a vm...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the most wierd thing now with nt is that win7 is going to include windows xp in a vm&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Steil</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100058</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Steil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100058</guid>
		<description>@Pradeep: Yes, OS X was ported to ARM for the iPhone, but there never was a migration path from Mac to iPhone to run old applications or port old applications over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Pradeep: Yes, OS X was ported to ARM for the iPhone, but there never was a migration path from Mac to iPhone to run old applications or port old applications over.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Pradeep</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100057</link>
		<dc:creator>Pradeep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100057</guid>
		<description>You could also say Mac OS X was ported to ARM for iPhone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You could also say Mac OS X was ported to ARM for iPhone.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Combee</title>
		<link>http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152&#038;cpage=1#comment-100053</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Combee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pagetable.com/?p=152#comment-100053</guid>
		<description>I worked at Metrowerks on the CodeWarrior for Palm OS tools at the time of the Palm OS 5 transition.  I did a lot of work on supporting PNOs.  A PNO could call back into the core OS: when it was called by the OS, it got both a user pointer passed from the application and a callback pointer which could be used to call 68K OS functions through the trap mechanism.  It was awkward, as the app had to reformat the arguments in the 68K endian order, but it was doable and we shipped a large macro library with CW to support its use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I worked at Metrowerks on the CodeWarrior for Palm OS tools at the time of the Palm OS 5 transition.  I did a lot of work on supporting PNOs.  A PNO could call back into the core OS: when it was called by the OS, it got both a user pointer passed from the application and a callback pointer which could be used to call 68K OS functions through the trap mechanism.  It was awkward, as the app had to reformat the arguments in the 68K endian order, but it was doable and we shipped a large macro library with CW to support its use.</p>
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